Chat with Bharat

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https://twitter.com/Klutch_NFT

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Music Credits:
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Transcript

03 NorCal and Klutch

[00:00:00] Klutch: Of course mine is not working properly again. Oh no, I, my audio keeps coming through my phone and not my headset. Oh, suck. No, leave real quick. Be right back. All right.

[00:00:16] Bharat: Looks like I gave you some of my bad Juju, 

[00:00:20] NorCal: right? That's right. We'll we'll get it all working.

[00:00:23] Klutch: There 

[00:00:24] NorCal: it is.

[00:00:25] NorCal: He's back.

[00:00:27] Klutch: Can you hear me? I can, you know what it is, I think when you make me a cohost, rather than a speaker, that's when it does this. Oh really? Yeah. Let me try that. I'll be right back. All right. Make you a speaker, not a cohost. Got it. All right. Thanks.

[00:00:42] NorCal: Welcome everybody. Thanks for coming.

[00:00:45] NorCal: Today's uh, guest is Barat. He's a self proclaimed decentralized maximalist and investor. His first on chain purchases were back in 2018. However he got in the NFTs and the original art scene in Q4 of 2019.

[00:01:04] NorCal: Can you tell us your background a bit when and how you got in the cryp? Yeah. 

[00:01:08] Bharat: Hey. Absolutely. So I would say I probably cut my teeth, um, in 2013 with some Bitcoin faucets, but, uh, you know, the entire user experience, the whole idea of digital currencies at the time were still so nascent. I didn't really get into it in a big way till probably 20 15, 20 16, which is when I really sort of got hooked when I, you know, And heard about smart contracts in Ethereum.

[00:01:40] Bharat: Right? So that was, that was kind of the watershed moment for me. And then I would say probably around, um, 2018 or so is when I got into defi for the first time. And I also in 2019 and 2018 is when I actually purchased my first NFD. I think I bought it in 2018, but I really got into NFTs in Q4 of 2019.

[00:02:03] Bharat: Right. So a lot of my initial purchase. um, we're on no margin and super air. Um, and they were back in 2019, right. So I've been in the crypto space for a bit. I've been in NFTs for four plus years now. So kind of a really, really, uh, long time when it comes to sort of investing in the space. Right. But, uh, that's a bit of my story on, uh, in web three, at least.

[00:02:27] Klutch: So Brad, you've been through bear marks before. How does this one feel to you right now, 

[00:02:32] Bharat: outta curiosity? You know, I don't feel max capitulation yet, which is a scary thing. I'll tell you, you have to survive to in order to really feel something the third time. And, uh, the first time it's kind of like a blip it's it's, everything happens very quickly.

[00:02:49] Bharat: You have no idea or sense of perspective. The second time you get better at it, but you still. Because you still know it's coming, but you still kind of think, Hey, maybe this time's different. The third time is very different because you are really prepared for it. Right. And, um, I will tell you, a lot of people compare this to the 2018 bear market and it's not even close.

[00:03:10] Bharat: Right? Yeah. You could say that, uh, you know, it's been a massive contraction in a very short period of time with massive defaults across the board with big names going under, right. That's that's more of the headline use if you. If you actually look at, you know, crypto and you look at prices, it's pretty normal.

[00:03:30] Bharat: I mean, there's nothing abnormal about this downturn. I would say that in prior downturns, that slope of hope was much worse. I mean, every time you felt like you were going back up, you took another leg down. Right? So I think what everybody has to be prepared for is what I would call a w shaped, um, recovery.

[00:03:51] Bharat: It's not gonna be a V-shaped recovery, right? You're not going. Fast capitulating and going back up, but it is gonna take a long period of time. It could take six to 12 months, right? It's gonna feel very painful because every time you think, you know, we're out of it, we're probably not. But one thing that I would say that is kind of positive this time around is that, you know, I liken it to the Bitcoin happening Ethereum and the proof of state chain right.

[00:04:16] Bharat: Gets very, very scarce. Right. So, um, you could see a little bit of a delayed impact of. What happens to be the most usable, um, chain and platform on the planet. Right? So as more use cases onboard, you could start to see that quickening happen, especially with the shift proof of stake. You could see more use cases adopting Ethereum now as a viable, progressive clean chain, if you will.

[00:04:44] Bharat: So I'm excited about that. 

[00:04:47] Klutch: I I'd like to ask one more thing about along those lines. So for me, I'm pretty new to crypto, but I, you know, I've, I've obviously watched it all these years and just didn't participate, but now NFPS feel very new to me, so, and the whole marketplace. So I kind of feel like NFPS are like in, you know, 2000, whatever, 13, 14.

[00:05:16] Klutch: Bitcoin or 2018 or something like that. Do you think the NFT marketplace is at that 

[00:05:23] Bharat: phase or not really? I think it may be a little bit later. Right? I mean, some people say I, the, they draw is kind skunk works movement. Right. And you can feel that, uh, there's a lot of experimentation going. But the analog would probably be closer to 2016 than 2013.

[00:05:45] Bharat: Right. So I think we're a little bit further along the maturity cycle now, um, than, you know, I would say the coins in 13, but, but that still says we have a long way to go right now. The interesting thing is the use use cases for non fungible, uh, tokens are just sort of the tip of the iceberg, right? Art is the perfect sort.

[00:06:06] Bharat: Tier one use case. You're gonna start to see all these complex primitives start to start to develop, which are gonna all be composable. And you're gonna start to see a super set of capabilities that start to get launched on these primitives. Right. You'll hear me talk a lot about infrastructure development and, uh, I think we have gotten ahead of ourselves in some cases with, uh, you know, just art and PFPs.

[00:06:31] Bharat: But not enough scalability and infrastructure underpinning it. Right. So it's, it's a bit of, uh, that catch up. That is where that inflection point starts to really get interesting

[00:06:42] NorCal: right now, do you have, I'm curious, like, so I was in, uh, part of the crew that was expecting, you know, crypto to go a lot higher and not to pull back like we did as, or as soon as we, I was expecting a higher. And since we didn't do that, do you think we'll just kind of do a lower, low, or not a lower, low, just kind of glide through this?

[00:07:06] NorCal: And then, I mean, I heard you say the w but it's just not gonna be like so bad 

[00:07:11] Bharat: or I, I would say that we're probably, you know, this is not financial advice, but I would say probably within 10 to 15% of the bottom. Right. OK. In other words, I think we're much closer to the bottom than we. To the midpoint, right?

[00:07:26] Bharat: This is that, that's a good thing. That means the pain that we feel is probably, you know, closer to a capitulation bottom than at any point prior. Um, and I would say that, but the, the pain that you really feel is gonna be this kind of flittering movement across the bottom that you're gonna have these failed starts and stocks.

[00:07:50] Bharat: Which are going to make it more painful. Right. Uh, but I do think like all of the, a lot of the fraud is out, right. A lot of the big news items are out. I think the thing that we cannot gauge this time is the impact of hyperinflation, right? Hyperinflation, you know, puts a damper on everything, right? So that is the X factor that we did not have in any power cycle.

[00:08:13] Bharat: So that's one thing to keep in mind is there's a headwind here, which we have not seen. You know, in, you know, highly volatile, um, you know, experimental technologies and how they react to hyper-inflated, um, you know, real world environment. 

[00:08:31] Klutch: Okay.

[00:08:32] Klutch: Now I think to move on to art related topics at this point. Yeah. I have a question for both of you guys actually, you, you both are elite. Collectors. I mean like you you're the guys, guys like me look up to, right. So, but you both joined a collective obviously, uh, bar joined the 6, 5 29 crew and north Kelly.

[00:08:58] Klutch: You recently joined the metropolitan. Yeah. What, what are your reasons for joining a collective versus just continuing to 

[00:09:07] Bharat: collect on your own? Yeah, so let, let me, you know, two things, right. For me, number one is, um, you know, 6, 5 29 came into the space a little over a year ago. And, uh, you know, very early on, we started, you know, riffing back and forth on discord and DMS and the ethos that he had and the whole perspective of, you know, just what needs to happen to grow and progress the space.

[00:09:36] Bharat: Our ideals were very aligned, right? So it. It was kind of a match, a perfect match in terms of what he saw for the space, what I saw with the space and how we thought it could improve over time. And we fundamentally had the same thoughts and ideas around grill artwork and also on infrastructure needing to continue to develop.

[00:09:56] Bharat: Right. So, and, and also regulation. Right? So a lot of what 65, 29 talks about is regulation. And I think he's got a really well thought out, probably the. Intelligent perspective on exactly what's happening. And he usually sees these things six months in advance, right? So it was a very easy decision to make for me when, um, you know, my personal collecting was fun and it's great.

[00:10:20] Bharat: And I still do it. I still do a lot of it, but it's also great to sort of take advantage of power laws. Right? So the idea here is if you have a crypto native fund and you're able to attract crypto natives, not traditional VC investors, but crypto native. Who believe in the betterment of the space and you start to corner the market for Gras, right?

[00:10:42] Bharat: It is powerful, right? Because then you don't leave it to chance to have some VC firms or set a VC, you know, Silicon valley types or others come in and launch their own fund, grab the grails, you know, extract value and dump them. What we're talking about is historical. What we're talking about is ultra loan time preference.

[00:11:02] Bharat: Like building a collection of collections, right. The analog I would give, uh, for traditional investors would be, you know, you think about the Magellan fund that Peter Lynch, uh, built right. And became a massive, you know, multi-billion dollar fund in the traditional world. I mean, we're, we're trying to build a fund of funds within the crypto space.

[00:11:24] Bharat: Right. But with really cloud native, um, individuals, as the LP. Not that we wouldn't take other investors in, but our ethos and our credo is, is aligned to completely cloud, you know, crypto native. And that's important.

[00:11:38] Klutch: How about you Nortel? Why'd you join the met, 

[00:11:42] NorCal: you know, uh, there's a grid crew of guys that were putting it together. And, um, I know some of those are builders and they're looking to. Do things in the space. Um, so I thought it'd be nice to join that, that little crew. And I feel, you know, sometimes it's good to work with each other.

[00:12:06] NorCal: You can bounce each other ideas off of each other and, uh, potentially, you know, develop the space further. Um, but I still, you know, they have limits on what they want to spend. I think it's, it's fun to share things with people. And then I can just do my own thing as well.

[00:12:25] Klutch: Great. Uh, next question. What are your favorite types of arts to collect? And do you, you like to focus on one of ones or are you open to additions? Uh, this one's probably more geared towards you at the 

[00:12:41] Bharat: moment. Man I'm a mut. Right? So I, I like a little bit of everything. Um, I mean, one of ones is where it's at.

[00:12:49] Bharat: There's nothing quite like the connection that you make with one of one art. Right? So for me, it's always one of ones first. I would say that I've softened up on additions over the last six to 12 months. And, um, you know, you just get to do a better spread of, you know, artists that you can collect. And, uh, you know, it gets interesting, right?

[00:13:12] Bharat: You, you, you get to build a connection. Um, but I would say I'm primarily a one of one art collector. I also have a pretty large generative collection. Um, you know, it's probably, uh, the second largest part of my personal portfolio. And then I would say that I also dabble in PFPs from time to time. Right.

[00:13:30] Bharat: And it's more on the trading paradigm. I have stuff that, you know, is obviously very personal to me. Like my hoodie. And, uh, my now and a few other things that I'll never trade, but, uh, a lot of my other PFPs, you know, I, I, I date them. I'm not married to them. My one of one art I'm absolutely married to it.

[00:13:49] Bharat: Right. It's it's ultra low time preference. Most of it forever. Right? Sorry to all my artist's friends out there. I'm not gonna create a secondary market for most of your work. 

[00:13:59] Klutch: That's funny that you bring that up. Cuz one, uh, one question I wanted to ask. Was you had a tweet, uh, not too long ago where you said, if you're an artist, you need two kinds of collectors.

[00:14:10] Klutch: You need one who's PA who passionately collects your art that you plan to, to huddle forever. But you also need collectors who smartly flip for profits. Now that's interesting because I have seen a lot of debates about this recently where, where some people are saying maybe. Uh, marketplaces should try to shut collectors off or limit them from buying it.

[00:14:35] Klutch: Cause it creates other challenges for artists. Uh, can you expand on your thoughts around that 

[00:14:40] Bharat: further perhaps? Yeah, I I'm, I'm not sure this is all about free markets, right? Any kind of artificial constraints on free markets, you up with something that's completely, uh, an and headed Hydra, right? It's it breaks the model to me, you know, the, the whole ecosystem of artists and collectors.

[00:14:58] Bharat: Are meant to be very symbiotic. Right. But I, I would say that, you know, if I put my own perspective, which is, you know, ultra low time preference, hold forever on one of one art, it's great. It gives artists some notoriety. Right. But if you think about it from the perspective of a artist who wants to be able to sort of build a name for themselves, sometimes they're looking for people to actually make a secondary.

[00:15:24] Bharat: And a sale of their work, right? So it does build a little bit of a, um, you know, a vibrant ecosystem for them, if you will. So having pure hard lonely artists, I mean, hard, lonely collectors is not a great thing for collect for artists, right? It, it, it's good. It, you have a strong base of collectors because then, you know, obviously your work, you know, is perceived in a very different manner.

[00:15:52] Bharat: If you have the right collectors, it could be considered a grill set. Right. Um, if you have, you know, a bunch of flippers, then it really makes a mess of your entire, uh, you know, your entire sort of body of work. Right? So I think the right mix is very important because having that stable collector base that loves your art and buys your art because they have a connection and passion is the most important base.

[00:16:18] Bharat: For any artist. Right. And if they don't have that, you know, I'm not sure they're going to build a vibrant sort of, you know, uh, portfolio beyond that. Right now. I do think that the second layer of that stack becomes this almost, you know, that flipper narrative. Right. But smart flipping. It's not just flipping for the sake of flipping, right.

[00:16:37] Bharat: Somebody who flips your art, buys it and flips it. The next day for two extra eat is he's an idiot, right. Or she's an idiot. I'm sorry. But if they're, you know, looking. , you know, they've generated value over time and you know, they've held a piece. They've loved it, but you know, they want to, you know, they, they wanna move on to something else or they wanna buy a different piece, you know, it's a free market, right.

[00:16:59] Bharat: So it's absolutely in a digital world, you have to be open to these concepts of primary and secondary markets. Right. And marketplaces, you know, the concept in traditional art is very, you know, it's, it's very inertia. It's full of inertia. But in a digital world, it's, you know, free of inertia and it's free markets, so you've gotta let the market do what markets do.

[00:17:22] Bharat: Um, otherwise, you know, you have, you have challenges, you know, with the ecosystem and development of, you know, your portfolio at large. 

[00:17:30] NorCal: Right now I have a question. Um, how do you value like an artist? Cuz there was like this ethos in the space to up only. How do you see that? And would you rather see more active artists, um, getting more sales or, or defending that 

[00:17:45] Bharat: floor?

[00:17:47] Bharat: You, you know, I it's, it's strange. Right. Um, I get asked this a lot by artists, right? Like you paid X for my piece, but my pieces haven't been selling at all. Are you okay if I were to lower the price and I'm like, you should do whatever you feel is right for you. Right. Look, nobody. Nobody should put artificial constraints on anything, right?

[00:18:06] Bharat: This is, this is the point I'm trying to make. Right? It's like, if eat goes up, do you, uh, reduce your eat price? If eat us dollar in us, dollar terms goes down, you reduce the price. Well, no. Right. You've gotta do what you feel is right based on the market. And it's, it's a little bit of a feel thing, right?

[00:18:24] Bharat: It's it's not completely a science mm-hmm but look, I mean, I, I think it really is. I mean, this whole idea, again of free markets, you know, you've gotta experi. That's what the space is about. Great. It really is about experimentation. You know, maybe you'll set a price and it won't work out. Maybe you'll set a price and you've, you know, you've underpriced it.

[00:18:42] Bharat: Right. But as long as you know, you are building, you know, great art and passionate collectors are picking those pieces up. You've won. So, um, in my mind, it's, it's not really about up only. It's about building a portfolio. That lasts over time that lasts for decades. And it's less about what Bob, Betty or Fred does over the next three or six months.

[00:19:07] Bharat: Right? Right. It's very little about that. Do you care if an artist is sold out? Um, it's an interesting data point, but I don't think it, um, I don't think it has any connection to the quality of an artist's work. You could have artists that are really terrific that have, you know, tens of twenties and 30 pieces out there.

[00:19:27] Bharat: And you could have artists that, you know, in your mind, as you perceive it, not to be great, that could be completely sold out. Right. So I think it really varies. It it's an interesting data point, but it's not the important data point. It's the connection that you have to the piece. That's the most important thing, right?

[00:19:44] NorCal: In your observations. Are there any practices that you see some artists Excel at, which brings them success and other artists might be 

[00:19:52] Bharat: missing? Oh, that's a great question. This is gonna be a little bit controversial, right? I think there are artists who do a much better job of what I call brand building.

[00:20:04] Bharat: Right. And I know a lot of people, especially artists view the word brand. As being bad, it's not, it really is about your persona. You gotta keep in mind that you're in a digital world, right? You're in a world where everybody's competing for eyeballs and attention. Right? What is going to differentiate, differentiate you from everybody else?

[00:20:24] Bharat: You've gotta think about that every single day, right? Not one. You want to create great art, no question. It starts with great art, but you also have to have some level of social NCE to be able to sort of either. A theme, a story, or just get eyeballs on your art, right? It's, it's an important aspect to digital art.

[00:20:46] Bharat: I mean, in a traditional world, you had all these, you know, these rent seekers and middle men, right? Middle people kind of interfering in the buy and sell process. Right. And charging their gavel tax on top. But in a digital world, you are the art, you are the platform, right. So that's a huge difference.

[00:21:07] Bharat: You've gotta ensure that you think of yourself as a brand so that you take the right steps, right. To be able to separate yourself and not be caught up in. Cause you see a lot of artists that say, oh, you know, I'm not gonna do it. I, I won't get into the game and it's not about shilling by the way. It is about having a presence.

[00:21:25] Bharat: It's about sharing your work. It's about networking with others, right? Promoting other people's work and having them promote your work in the same time. It's it's about building that ecosystem, right? That is what is the power of web three, right? So it's taking the social construction from Twitter. It's connecting that with the decentralized platforms and capabilities that we have with Ethereum or Azos right.

[00:21:47] Bharat: You pick the, the platform and the. But you've got to be able to build a brand and it's not a bad thing in a digital world. It is your persona. It's your identity. Right. And it, it has to talk and it has to speak. And that's, that's, what's important. 

[00:22:03] Klutch: Yeah. I tend to agree. I it's, it's funny. I've had a lot of conversations in the DMS with other collectors and being in constant Dow.

[00:22:13] Klutch: We have a lot of conversations and it's interesting. Cuz you can compare. Two artists, right. And one artist could be technically far superior and, and it's just very obvious, right? Um, like say in a glitch piece, for example, they'll just have just way more detailed, way more layers, all those things. But then you look at somebody like X copy and he can put out a relatively simple piece.

[00:22:44] Klutch: He's ex copy. Right? He's built the brand and it's so big and powerful now that it it's really more about the artist and their brand to some degree than, than the individual piece of art. It feels like at times. Do 

[00:22:58] Bharat: you agree with that? I do, but here's, here's a perspective for everybody, right? So I'm glad you bringing X copy of, so, um, believe it or not.

[00:23:08] Bharat: Um, let me, let me see if I can find my details on this. I. I bought my first X copy September 1st, 2019. Okay. And it was a one of one called mortal underscore. Right. And it's on super rare. I paid 0.6, five E for it at the time. Right. That's $122 for all of you keeping track. Okay. So think about the fact that X copy was selling his original pieces for less than what you guys are charging today.

[00:23:38] Bharat: Right? That's the perspective you need to. By the way in those days, there were probably five or six artists. I could probably name them all. And there were probably twice as many collectors. Right. That was it. So you think you were shooting fish in a barrel? It pretty much was right. That was it. Your hope is, Hey, I'm experimenting on this chain.

[00:24:00] Bharat: I'm experimenting on this artist, but you know what? They've got some culturally Meetic. Relevant pieces that they're building. Right. And that was kind of the hypothesis and story. So I go back to my brand and why brand is important. If you look at X copies, earliest pieces, they were still very MEIC right.

[00:24:20] Bharat: They were still culturally aligned. It was linked to what was happening, you know, at the period and the time. Right. So that is what I mean by brand and brand relevance. It doesn't mean the sophistication of the artwork or the art. The number of hours that you spent creating it, it has to do with how you make your heart relevant to that period and how you sort of develop a DNA and a brand around that heart, right.

[00:24:46] Bharat: That overtime starts to capture, um, people's attention. And that's, that's the important aspect here.

[00:24:52] NorCal: Now I'm curious. Um, if you could go back in time and give yourself three tips as a collect.

[00:24:59] NorCal: To have made you successful, um, over your career, 

[00:25:02] Bharat: what would they be? Oof. Uh, that's a tough one. You know, I would say I enjoyed the experience. Right. So if I did it, I'd probably do it. Just like I did all over. I mean, with the benefit of hindsight, would've bought like 15 or 20 more X copies yesterday.

[00:25:20] Bharat: right. But, but I mean like the fun part was the experimentation and the experience. Right. So to me, I don't know if there was a formulaic thing I would do differently. I mean, I, I enjoyed. The aspect of collecting, I enjoyed buying artists who later became GRA artists. Right? I mean that there was something about that when you were the only person bidding on a piece and, you know, over time that artist kind of just exploded and developed into, you know, a grail of Gras.

[00:25:51] Bharat: Right. I mean, it's just an amazing feeling, you know, to have been an early support. To have been a part of that, uh, you know, a small part of that inflection for that artist. I think that's what I really enjoyed the most. So, you know, for me, those are kind of what, what really get me excited and happy. Right.

[00:26:06] Bharat: To see the next 10, 15, 20, you know, X copy like artists. Right. Who just explode. Um, but yeah, I can't, I can't really sort of pin it to three things. It's it's just experience, I, I enjoyed it. 

[00:26:20] NorCal: Yeah, definitely. It's been a. Couple of years. I, I I'll admit that it's been fun.

[00:26:25] Klutch: I, I do see a lot of artists on here, so I know there's been a lot of talking points going around recently about how do collectors view platforms or your own contract being on your own contract, like manifold or I'm sure there's plenty more manacles to come. How do you feel about those right now?

[00:26:46] Klutch: Because obviously when you started the, there was much more, the options were much more limited and they've, they've spread out a little bit, but it's still not nearly as big as I imagine they're gonna get. How, what do you think 

[00:26:59] Bharat: about those things? I, I think everybody should take control of their own destiny.

[00:27:04] Bharat: Right? So having their own manifold contract, which integrates with all the platforms now anyway, right. I would say the more that you are self reliant and self dependent, the better right now, obviously new folks who are coming into the space. You know, the easiest path may be just to take advantage of what the platform provides, um, and go that route.

[00:27:26] Bharat: But if you have the benefit of having been here for a bit, I mean, you absolutely should launch your own manifold contract. You should integrate that with the platforms, right? Wherever possible. I mean, I, if you're planning on staying a while, You ought to build the provenance and have it be your own contract.

[00:27:43] Bharat: I mean, it's just, it's the most powerful and the coolest thing possible. Right. So absolutely it should, you know, I, I would, I would highly recommend people do that. 

[00:27:52] Klutch: Do you value one platform more than another? If art is on say super rare over foundation or open sea? 

[00:27:59] Bharat: Um, I, I would say that I'm probably in the minority here, but I would say great art is great art anywhere, right?

[00:28:07] Bharat: I, uh, you know, I did a pre uh, a pretty significant portion of my art collecting on super rare, but I did purchase quite a bit on foundation as well. And I've done it on no origin maker's place, right. Async art. Um, for me, mifty gateway tube for me, art is art, right? So if a great artist is gonna drop on nifty or any other platform, I am, I'm going to go where the great art is.

[00:28:33] Bharat: I mean, that's the bottom. I do like having frictionless buying experiences. So I hate having to like, not have my native wallet integrated into a platform. These are all pet peeves for me, but, you know, for good artists or great artists, I will make, uh, an exception. Right. But, uh, I am definitely not a, uh, you know, platform biased by any stretch.

[00:28:57] Bharat: I'm I would say I'm artist biased.

[00:28:59] Klutch: I'm 

[00:29:00] NorCal: curious when talking about the artist, what, what do you value more? The artist or the, the art? Like what are 

[00:29:07] Bharat: you researching on? It's hard to, yeah, it's hard to disconnect the two, right? For me, the artist is the art, right? So I think it's, it's both, frankly, because when you buy a piece, you are linking the expressions, the emotions, the creativity of the artist.

[00:29:26] Bharat: Um, through that piece, right? So you are in effect making a connection with the artist itself. So I, I think it's, it's kind of linked. I don't think it's an either or it's a, it's an end function, but, um, you know, I, I think it's equally important.

[00:29:40] Bharat: I got 

[00:29:41] Klutch: one. This one is, uh, little, this one's for me. as I started collecting more, I've noticed that. The bigger, your name gets as a collector. If you go bid on something, somebody is just gonna copy bid you like so much more than it ever used to have it to be. It is frustrating, right? Like you're like, oh, I've been trying to collect this artist for like two months now.

[00:30:04] Klutch: And I bid and bid and every time I get in on it, it's a bidding more. So I'm having a all, why do I have to set the new, all time high for everybody all the time? and it kind of feels that way at times. So. I have noticed in recent months, more collectors are using Anon wallets for bidding. What are your thoughts around Anon wallets bidding?

[00:30:25] Klutch: Because I've also heard other people say, well, your name has Providence as a, as a collector. And I'm like, uh, I don't know about that. So I, I 

[00:30:32] Bharat: want, I want to get your take on that. You know, it's kind of interesting. I would. I'm in the camp of, you know, you go in and you go bold, right. Because it's, it, it really is.

[00:30:45] Bharat: At the end of the day, you want to ensure the artist gets their due. Right. So, you know, hiding in a fake wallet, doing all those things, it seems like a lot of pain for a little bit of game. At the end of the day, the artist has created a great piece of work and hopefully the market's gonna determine the value of that.

[00:31:04] Bharat: Uh, artist's work. Right. So. There is no question that certain people's collecting triggers like a flurry, right? I mean, it's like, it's like S in the water, right. and, um, there, there's no question that happens, but I think it's, it's natural and it's, it's a good thing. Right? It's it's free markets. It's like, I mean, just as I, you know, have hopefully identified a few grill artists very early that, you know, other people, other collectors have collect.

[00:31:36] Bharat: Post facto. I learned from a lot of the newer collectors, right? I mean, I learned from people every single day and I think it's having open mind and, you know, really sort of, uh, letting the market dictate at the end of the day where the pricing goes, right. Versus some kind of artificial construct. I think a great piece is gonna always get a great price because people see the, uh, inherent value of the work.

[00:31:59] Bharat: Right. And the connection to the artist, I will say. 

[00:32:04] Klutch: It is, it is crazy how much I go back and I look at like, uh, like I learned about a new artist. I go and look at their past work. And then one of their first few pieces, one of you, two guys owns it. blows me away. Like, I'm not, I'm like, I'm so jealous. Cause I'm like, damn you guys, you guys got all this good stuff.

[00:32:26] Klutch: So cheap way back then. And you guys got all these big wins, but, but how did you guys find these? Like you guys. Take chances. And like what, what makes you make that choice? Like, it obviously feels more comfortable and safe to go into an artist who's built, been around, built a big name for a while, and maybe you have to pay a little more versus somebody who has doesn't have that reputation already, but you guys have went deep a lot.

[00:32:52] Klutch: It seems like. And we're, we're bidding on people before 

[00:32:55] Bharat: they were known. Nael you wanna go first? Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'll 

[00:32:58] NorCal: say definitely co um, you. Management like what, what it was two years ago. It was a lot easier too. Um, I know, I, I felt like I was late joining in the space, but it definitely was a lot smaller.

[00:33:12] NorCal: Um, I felt like there was like a handful of collectors that you're always bidding against and, you know, you could easily research and find. Well, not necessarily easily, but you could go and you could do the work and you could find artists easier. Um, especially when I first started, cause I was small and unknown, so it was easier for me to, you know, talk to people and I wasn't getting just random DMS.

[00:33:43] NorCal: So that was, it was just, I guess, different time I didn't have a name and that just made it easier, not having 

[00:33:48] Klutch: a. 

[00:33:49] Bharat: Yeah, I, I think for me, right. Um, you know, the, the space was obviously much less noisy in 2019 and 2020, right? 20, 21, I would say the second half was an absolute zoo. But, um, if you look at the period between, you know, late 2019 going into into 2020, it was the golden years of collecting, right.

[00:34:12] Bharat: Because you know, you saw great art. There wasn't a lot of noise. But it was really good digital art, you know, just, you know, being, you know, created on the daily. Right. And you didn't have all of this hyperactive, multiple artists, you know, you know, just hundreds and thousands of artists flooding you. Right.

[00:34:34] Bharat: But, um, so it was a little bit, it was a little bit cleaner, but I would say even having said that if you look at 2021 and you look at 2020, There are definitely ways that you can, you know, if you connect with a piece and you connect with an artist, right. And it's just a gut thing, right. I mean, you know, I've, I've gotten, you know, if, if I've got a collection and there's good grill artists in there, a part of it is I envision.

[00:35:02] Bharat: And a part of it is luck great, because it really is. Um, you know, it is the connection that you have to appease. And, uh, it is the provenance of that piece. Right? So as other collectors come in and as that artist develops their brand and their DNA, um, you know, these people start to see a pattern emerge, right.

[00:35:23] Bharat: And that pattern is uniquely X copy. That pattern is uniquely coldy that pattern patterns, uniquely Hacka it's uniquely FOH. It's uniquely Trevor Jones. Right? I mean, you see all of these things, right. Um, you know, that sort. Make the piece connect to the artist, right. And those patterns are what make it very interesting for collectors because they can also start to sniff that DNA out.

[00:35:49] Bharat: Right. So the more you see that work, you know, the more, you know, it resonates and then over time it starts to just propagate. Right. And it becomes almost viral in terms of the way that, uh, collectors start to, you know, pick up pieces from that particular artist or series of artists. So I think it starts like a fever almost, right?

[00:36:09] Bharat: Like a virus. Yeah. When, 

[00:36:12] Klutch: when an artist gets hot, it is insane. Like how they can just take off like so fast. 

[00:36:18] Bharat: It is amazing. It is amazing. Even in this market too. Yeah. I mean like one of one art is having its, you know, it's, it's like golden Jubilee, right? I mean, it is crazy. It's like, uh, one of one art has not suffered during this downturn.

[00:36:37] Bharat: In fact, you know, smart investors are buying art right now, right? Because if you think about the analog right in the traditional art world, people are inflating the dollar down, you know, and currencies down and art prices are pegged to that inflated currency. But if you think about what we have in the digital space, you've got a currency that's actually, you know, deflationary, right.

[00:37:02] Bharat: And you have art prices that are effectively, you know, as a consequence, you know, going down. So if you think, and you believe in the space long term and by long term, I mean, three to five years, not two months or three months. Then you're really setting yourself up. Well, if you buy along this trough, right.

[00:37:20] Bharat: Because, uh, you know, when we get outta this and we will eventually get outta this, right. It may take 12 months. It may take 36 months. Right. But when we do get outta this, it will have been, you know, the, uh, the golden age for collecting. I hope 

[00:37:36] Klutch: so, man. cause I, I have been dollar cost Aton for like months now.

[00:37:41] Klutch: And I'm like this better pay off. Cause if it doesn't I'm I'm gonna be hurting.

[00:37:46] Klutch: do you have any other questions for 

[00:37:48] NorCal: me? Norca yeah, I was curious, you know, what, is there any flags, any red flags that pop up or practices that would make you pass on certain 

[00:37:57] Bharat: artists? I'll tell you one of the things that drives me insane. Right? It's the, you know, it's when artists get into your DMS and they only thing that they wanna do is like, Hey, buy my art.

[00:38:10] Bharat: Right. Which is , you know, it's like it it's, it's weird for me. Right. It's like a allergic reaction. And it's funny. I, I will say this publicly on Twitter, and I will say this on this podcast, but I bet you, by the time I go back to my machine, I'd have like 15 or 20 DMS saying, Hey, buy my art. and it's that piece that kind of is a little bit, you know, kind of weird.

[00:38:32] Bharat: It like, it should never be forced. It should never be, you know, art is like, it's so personal, it's so much of a connection that you've gotta feel it and you've gotta do it when you feel it. Right. And it's weird. Like, I'll see a piece and then I will, you know, I'll forget about the piece then, you know, I'll think about that piece two days later.

[00:38:54] Bharat: And I'll think about it a week later. And then I immediately go and buy that piece. Right. But that's, it's the way that it captures your mind. It captures your, you know, when you sleep, it, it kind of like, it plays a. In your, your dreams and your sleep cycle. And it's like, you've gotta get it right. You've gotta go after it.

[00:39:13] Bharat: But that's the connection. When somebody says, Hey, buy my art, here's a piece like, please buy my art. I'm launching this. Will you please buy my art? It's just a, it's just a different experience, a different feeling altogether, right. It right. Even if you were really passionate about that artist, it probably is a semi turnoff.

[00:39:29] Bharat: Right. And, uh, that's something that I hope people realize, you know, is. Is, is it like it does play on collectors, right? You would be shocked at the number of DMS collectors get. And a lot of people ask me, how come you never open your DMS? Well, I'll tell you why I don't open my DMS because it's that reason.

[00:39:47] Bharat: Right. That's why I like to build a connection first. And then, you know, as we vibe, as we start to get like, and build and develop a relationship as artists, collectors, or just artists observers, The next natural progression is artist collector. Right. Um, let it be natural. I can assure you that that's much more powerful, right.

[00:40:08] Bharat: Um, in the long term. Right? 

[00:40:12] Klutch: Totally agree, man. Like it is it, it can turn you off on artists so fast, you know, I always like to tell artists the, the approach I would, I would suggest is if an art or if a, if a collector just recently follows you and if you want to introduce. Don't say, Hey, I got this new piece coming up.

[00:40:32] Klutch: Can you share, or this is the other thing too. They ask you to share a tweet of theirs. Right. And it's like, oh yeah. oh, I, I can't stand that personally. I'm just like, Nope. Never gonna share it. Get outta here. And then yeah, my, my suggestion is if they followed you, that means they probably clicked in your work and thought it was intriguing and they are gonna keep you in mind for maybe in the future.

[00:40:56] Klutch: But. You know that that might be not this piece. It might be a piece three, six months down the road. But if you want to develop a relationship with them, don't ask them for something. Instead, offer them something, say, Hey, I saw you followed me. Thank you for the follow. If you have any questions about my art or my process in creating it hit me up any time.

[00:41:20] Klutch: I'd love to tell you whatever. I'd love to answer any questions. You may have something like that is much. More like open than hardcore shilling. Share my piece, share my tweet, uh, his, the new art, you know, I'd love to be in your collection. All those things just like are just like, yes, I'm a vending. I'm a ATM to you.

[00:41:43] Klutch: No, thank you. 

[00:41:45] Bharat: it's what I call the financialization of the space. Right? This is what really like drives me nuts. It's like everybody, I mean, it's not just artists, right? I mean, Everything has become like, it it's become a transaction. Right. Which is unfortunate. The relationship is the most important thing.

[00:42:02] Bharat: Never forget that on that relationship, you know, perhaps a transaction will happen, right. And you know, an artist and a collector will build a deeper bond, but like just the vibe and the connection is the most important thing. And it's amazing over time, how that develops and builds into something better.

[00:42:21] Bharat: Don't force it because the forcing creates the absolute opposite. Um, you know, expectation is the only way I can describe it, right? 

[00:42:32] NorCal: Yeah. It's gotta, it's gotta flow. It's gotta be natural. And it might take a while to get to that, you know, just be patient as an artist.

[00:42:40] Klutch: Do you have any other questions, mark? Uh, you know, I'm not, 

[00:42:45] NorCal: I, I, I guess I just want to like, There's a few artists. Well, there's like a, I don't know if you feel this or have noticed this. I feel like there's like this dead zone of like three plus E to like 15 E. If you have your work priced in there, it's like hard to sell and I've been trying to talk to artists, be like, Hey, you need to, you know, you didn't catch momentum to get out of that dead zone.

[00:43:13] NorCal: Um, so potentially you should look. Trying to rebuild that price network or reprice that structure. What are your thoughts on that? And any suggestions on how to get out of that dead zone or if you've noticed that dead zone? 

[00:43:31] Bharat: Yeah. It's a very challenging question. Orkel right. I mean, it's back to that whole, you know, free markets, right.

[00:43:37] Bharat: It's very challenging because that three to 15 space is it's kind of interesting, right? It is a little bit of luck. It is the right piece seen by the right collector at the right moment in time. Right. Whereas somebody may have not spent more than an E on it, in the right circumstance and situation, you know, and the mood and the setting.

[00:44:04] Bharat: Right. It could be something that somebody would pay three E for. Right. So it's very hard to get formulaic about it, but I, I, I do think that it's very important. Not. To reset your prices, right? Even if the market sucks, do not reset your prices, because I'll tell you the artists who maintain their price points.

[00:44:25] Bharat: Right. And, and keep it relatively sort of stable are the ones who are going to do well in the mid to longer term because they value their work. Right. In other words, they're not willing to sacrifice just because the market. On the effort and time they put in and the passion they put into that work.

[00:44:44] Bharat: Right. So, you know, my only advice would be don't dilute, don't sell your piece and eat less than what you did for your most recent sale, because you want to get it sold. I mean, now, if you are desperate to get it sold, that's a different thing, right? There are economic factors that play into this, but I would say if you don't have the economic constraints, do not like do not concede do not give up.

[00:45:09] Bharat: You gotta kind of fight for it a little bit, because I, I, I think that the artists that maintain their price points will do exceedingly well. When you get back into, uh, you know, a recovering market, right? Um, the ones that have repriced and have like lower the prices on their artworks will sometimes suffer.

[00:45:28] Bharat: Right? They may have more art out there. There may be a bigger glut. I mean, I'm, these are all. My observations. So take them for what that's worth. I mean, it's a sample set of stuff that I see, but I do recommend that people not price to the downside, right. That maintain your E prices maintain your last sale.

[00:45:48] Bharat: Right? If you must, and if it's economic in nature, you should do what you need to write. Cause you gotta, you gotta feed your family and you feed yourself first. And that's the most important thing. But otherwise I, I would say, you know, do what you needed to protect your price. Nice. 

[00:46:04] NorCal: Thank you. Solid.

[00:46:05] Klutch: Well, at the end, at the end of our show, we always like to do a little section. We call hot takes per out. And I don't know if you have any prepared, but it's something we always do. And normally I would push this button on my rig and it would get working, but my rigs not really working right now, so I would push it.

[00:46:24] Klutch: But you guys probably don't hear the song. You hear the song? No. Okay. So my rig is totally busted, but it's a nice little hot take song and Noel will have to edit it in for the podcast. Yes. Yeah.

[00:46:37] Klutch: oh, you have any hots you'd like to share bar or would you like one of 

[00:46:42] Bharat: us to go first? Oh man. Why don't you guys go and then give me a couple of minutes to capture my, uh, my thoughts on.

[00:46:49] Klutch: Okay. Uh, my hot take is,

[00:46:53] Klutch: oh God. Okay. I was gonna go with. I was gonna give, uh, Patty stash a little, a little hit and say, everyone go buy Soka. Not financially by no, just kidding. so feels like the only safe place in the market right now though. Um, hot take. Oh man. I thought I'd have one. Do you have one north hill? Sorry. 

[00:47:15] NorCal: Oh, man, this

[00:47:17] NorCal: I felt like I was just out of the, this space, this, uh, this week on Twitter.

[00:47:21] Klutch: No, I, I maybe we'll have to edit out the whole hot 

[00:47:24] NorCal: takes. We might have to hot takes and then just hit the closing song. 

[00:47:29] Klutch: uh, well, hot take typically is brought, uh, in past weeks we said things like, um, it, it's funny brought that up. The, uh, holding your price, cuz one of my hot takes recently was. Artisan, uh, collectors should be more willing to prearrange deals.

[00:47:48] Klutch: Um, I've noticed, for example, all the high end artists, uh, they tend to put a piece out and then it's got an offer and then it's accepted in under five minutes. Right. And that happens a lot at the higher end range. Uh, it, it happens very seldomly sub five five. And so that was one of my takes in past weeks.

[00:48:10] Klutch: Uh, I'd like to get your thoughts on that. Do you think that is a viable option for people on lower price 

[00:48:18] Bharat: points? Yeah. I mean, if the artist and collector vibe, right, it, it shouldn't matter. Right. You know, whether they do it in an auction or they do it in a private, you know, buy right. Or the piece is submitted, somebody submits an offer and they immediately accept it.

[00:48:35] Bharat: It's all goodness. Right. To me, that's a part of what makes the space, you know, what it is, it's a connect. It's a bond. So, I mean, I'm totally cool with that. I, I, I think it makes a ton of sense, right? It's not like you have to put every piece out on auction because there look, I mean, sometimes it is more important for your work to be in the right collector's hand than it is to have perhaps a higher price.

[00:49:01] Bharat: And I mean, this sincerely, right. It is much more important to have your work in the right collector's hand because that individual cares. And wants to support you and support your growth. And it's not looking at it, you know, like a transaction of some kind, right? So the, there are dynamics here, which are important, which are, you know, even more important than the transaction itself.

[00:49:24] Bharat: Right. So I would say, um, you know, that that's a big part of it. I I'll give you guys an example. Right. And this is a very personal one for me. So Ryan TBO, um, who is a great 3d artist, right? I've been collecting from him for a. When he had his super rare Genesis, he reached out to me and he said like you to have my Genesis, I'm even gonna put it up public sale, but I want you to have it.

[00:49:50] Bharat: Right. So you see what I'm saying? It's, it's, it's, there's a very special bond that develops over time and it's very important. That, that artist and collector have that, you know, that, that moment and that connection. And oftentimes it's more important than the fact that, Hey, that Genesis could be worth 88.

[00:50:11] Bharat: No, nobody cares. Right. Because you know, I'm not gonna sell it, you know, it's, you know what I mean? It's, that's, that's, what's, that's, what's the beauty of the space is that connection. Right. Which is the way I look. I'm giving you a very long winded answer for your hot take, by the way. I'm sorry. 

[00:50:29] Klutch: no, I like it.

[00:50:30] Klutch: I, I tend to agree too. That was one thing I mentioned too, that sometimes col uh, artists should try to collect collectors and. Cuz there are some collectors that are definitely more valuable than, than others. And it's just, it's just the facts. You know, some, they collect it and then it just goes in some man on wallet and it just sits there and that person doesn't even have a Twitter account.

[00:50:52] Klutch: And sure, it's cool. You made money at the moment. Um, but if you have somebody who, you know is a, is gonna champion you in the space and be your biggest cheerleader, that obviously has some value 

[00:51:04] Bharat: to. Yeah, without a doubt. And by the way, I think I've, I've got a hot take for y'all. So my, my, I think my tweet today probably sums it up, right.

[00:51:13] Bharat: This space is about mass experimentation. Right. And, uh, it's interesting, you know, some people are gonna be out there Gring and some people are actually gonna be doing altruistic work that ends up being a gift. Right. And, uh, my point on all of this is that, you know, what makes web three amazing is the experimentation, right?

[00:51:33] Bharat: So as an artist, As a builder experiment the heck out of the space, right? Because that's what this place is about. It's not about a formula. It's not about like one size fits. All right. Don't fall into that trap. Don't fall into the echo chamber, fade the herd and just experiment. Right. Experiment experiment.

[00:51:55] Bharat: Because I, you know, it's, it's what this entire digital. First web three economies about, right. So there you go. It's like a semi hot take. I like 

[00:52:08] Klutch: that. It's uh, it also helps keep you very topical if you're always running experiments that are a little interesting, you know, you look at yeah. Um, things Guido has done for example, or.

[00:52:24] Klutch: All, all sorts of people have done different things with different mechanics, as far as burning or pricing art. In certain ways, I saw Brian Brinkman the other day that this really crazy thing on his nifty drop, where he made it. So the top five people had to, uh, or who had the highest total in purchases would get dropped a certain.

[00:52:49] Klutch: An extra NFT that went from like day and night on this, on these two NFTs. Yeah. And it was so funny because normally how a NFT or a nifty auction works is it's the bottom constantly coming up. Right? Mm-hmm well, the bottom just stopped. And then it was like these top 10 people who just kept doing the math on what everybody had as a total.

[00:53:11] Klutch: And it was the top that kept going forever. Now I was, it just blew my mind. I was like, wow, I've never seen. And maybe somebody else has done it before, but when I saw it, I was like, this was, this was 

[00:53:22] Bharat: incredible. I love it, man. Flip the paradigm. Right? I mean, it's, it's what we gotta do. I mean, that's, that's, what's cool about this place.

[00:53:29] Bharat: Make it, make it dynamic, change it up. 

[00:53:32] NorCal: Definitely. Yeah, that was a fun drop. I, I got to participate in that one. It was 

[00:53:36] Bharat: fun. Why does that not surprise me north held . 

[00:53:39] NorCal: Uh, well, I, I released a podcast with him on that day and then I was talking to him about it and then I read about it. I was like, oh, it's like an extra benefit if you, you know, get the top five spot, so

[00:53:52] NorCal: gotta do it.

[00:53:54] Klutch: Yeah. But you didn't go for it. well, I, 

[00:53:57] NorCal: I think I, I got top five, but I didn't, I think I got top five, but then I didn't do number one. Number one. The, the nifty that they, you got airdropped was set in their time zone. Oh yeah, 

[00:54:09] Klutch: that was the other thing. So the top five kept going on forever and then the number one spot kept going on forever.

[00:54:15] Klutch: That was, that was crazy. Every anybodys wants to see it. Crazy. Nifty drop, go look at his mechanics on that. That was just totally bizarre. There was just all levels battling each other in that one. Oh, it's, 

[00:54:29] Bharat: it's super funny.

[00:54:30] Klutch: Well, unless you have a hot take NorCal. I think we can wrap it up. 

[00:54:34] NorCal: Yeah, I think, uh, I think we're gonna call it and just appreciate your time. Broad. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing this with us. 

[00:54:42] Bharat: Hey, thank you guys. My pleasure. Right? Happy to be here and, uh, happy to come on a future. Um, NorCal and she'll I mean, NorCal and clutch.

[00:54:50] Bharat: Yeah, both. We do 

[00:54:52] NorCal: both. Yeah. 

[00:54:52] Bharat: I rode you clutch that's all right. 

[00:54:55] Klutch: Hey my, Hey, you got your rig working and I didn't get my rig working and I taught you how to use the rig. So that's 

[00:55:01] Bharat: that's funny. yeah, so that's, there's a hot take in there somewhere. 

[00:55:06] Klutch: yeah. Oh man. User error 

[00:55:10] NorCal: or something. Yeah. Awesome. Well, everybody, thanks for coming out and joining us.

[00:55:16] NorCal: I'll get this edited and up soon and we'll chat soon. Thanks again. Thanks K clutch for being my co-host and Barat for being our guest today. 

[00:55:24] Bharat: Thanks Barat. Thanks you guys. Pleasure. Take care. Bye .