AI, Art? With Ex Lawyer and WetPotatoBrain

Join us as we learn and discuss AI art.

The  meaning, definitions and discussion of its use as a tool and more.

Ex Lawyer

WetPotatoBrain

NorCal and Klutch

Klutch

NorCal Guy

Follow the hosts:
https://twitter.com/GuyNorcal
https://twitter.com/Klutch_NFT

Follow the pod:
https://twitter.com/NorCalandKlutch

Music Credits:
https://twitter.com/RoomInEight

Transcript

03 NorCal and Klutch AI Art with ExLawyer and WetPotatoBrain

INTRO

[00:00:33] Klutch: Let's go. You guys ready for this? 

[00:00:37] WetPotatoBrain: Well, let's do it. Let's 

[00:00:38] Ex-Lawyer: balance. Do it. I'm being scared. 

[00:00:42] Klutch: All right. So what I'd like to start with, if you guys don't mind? Um, well, I guess let's start with introductions. Uh, did you guys do those already? 

[00:00:50] Ex-Lawyer: Uh, no, actually we did 

[00:00:51] Klutch: not. All right. Um, NorCal and myself, most people know I'm a.

[00:00:58] Klutch: I'm a art collector, original, uh, uh, web two guy, um, started this with Kel two weeks ago. Now, uh, we want to talk about spicy topics and not be shy about really getting into them like most people do. Um, so yeah, that's me nor Kelly. You wanna go? 

[00:01:19] NorCal: Um, just a average collector, just enjoying the space, enjoying the time here.

[00:01:24] NorCal: And, um, you know, when NFTs came out, um, this couple years ago, it felt like, uh, cryptocurrency being released all over again. So I had to get in and I've just enjoyed it. 

[00:01:39] Klutch: Nice ex 

[00:01:41] Ex-Lawyer: lawyer, I'm an ex lawyer. My real life job has nothing to do with this space. And if you know me, it's probably from one of my threads that is probably Chuck full of, uh, spelling and grammatical errors.

[00:01:57] Klutch: Perfect. Very nice 

[00:01:58] Ex-Lawyer: doc. 

[00:02:00] WetPotatoBrain: Uh, I'm an, I'm an artist. Um, I make art that's, uh, with the use of AI and algorithms and, uh, real life, uh, do the doctor thing too. 

[00:02:12] Klutch: Yeah. You're basically like a genius who went to Harvard and did all that stuff. So , 

[00:02:17] WetPotatoBrain: isn't that true? I cannot really view, uh, too many details. 

[00:02:22] Klutch: I know you won't call yourself a genius, but I'll call you one.

[00:02:24] Klutch: Uh, so yeah, we wanna talk about AI today. I guess what I, what I like to do is start about talking about the technology. So I wanna lean on doc for this quite heavily, uh, if he can explain exactly how AI systems work there. I know we all know the various ones. There's Dolly two there's mid journey. There's um, Wombo dream on your phone.

[00:02:47] Klutch: Uh, if you, can you explain those a little doc and how they work? 

[00:02:51] WetPotatoBrain: And so I you're, um, you're focusing on one very specific, uh, type of web web based, uh, kind of readily accessible, kind of this new trend that people have found online, uh, of text image, uh, text image, generation, meaning you put some text into a prompt, uh, you enter a couple seconds later.

[00:03:14] WetPotatoBrain: You get a picture that that's one, that's one type of what, what one would consider AI art. Uh, there's other things too, you know, there's like, um, people have been doing, uh, GAN art for years and years and years in training their own networks. And there's a lot of people, big people in this space that, uh, make art that way too.

[00:03:34] WetPotatoBrain: I would just step back a second and say that if we're gonna talk about AI art, we should be using it as a, kind of a bigger picture kind of umbrella term, but the stuff that you're referring to specifically that you mentioned there, like Dolly stuff like that, the text image stuff, uh that's. That's just a subset of, and so, um, yeah.

[00:03:55] WetPotatoBrain: So how does that stuff work? It's, uh, it's a diffusion based, uh, model. That's just a technical term, uh, to put it into kind of like layman terms that images are in a database and they have captions to them. And when you put in the words, uh, the, the machine learning network, the neural network figures out exactly what images link up to those words in that database.

[00:04:22] WetPotatoBrain: And then it synthesizes the images from absolutely nothing. And so, um, it's really complicated how it, how it's done, but the presentation on your screen is extremely elegant and pre-trained databases take only a couple seconds to produce images. And now, now we can see things like faces and they look clear, they don't look, uh, weird.

[00:04:44] WetPotatoBrain: And a lot of the artifacts are gone that we're in previous, uh, types of, uh, iterations. So the new technology and this new way of, uh, text to image stuff is really, uh, interesting and produces, uh, amazing images. But yeah, so there's these databases of images and they're trained, uh, to form this neural network, uh, when you're, when your search term goes in, uh, it queries it, uh, the computer, the algorithm puts it together and it, it synthesizes it literally from Pearl and noise or just absolutely nothing.

[00:05:16] WetPotatoBrain: And that's, that's what the diffusion method is. So 

[00:05:20] Klutch: where do these databases of images come from? Are they like. Uh, it's so it's not just crawling like Google image search or something. Right. It's using some kind of licensed image 

[00:05:32] WetPotatoBrain: database, I assume. Yeah. There's proprietary databases. And then there's, uh, there's some that are, you know, open source that you can get on.

[00:05:38] WetPotatoBrain: Uh, you know, you can download them from GitHub or from people's, uh, uh, websites. You know, I'd say that some of the earlier databases with VQ G and some of the early clip diffusion, uh, models, people were using databases that had a hundred million, 200 million images, 300 million images. I think Dolly is something over like a billion images or something now.

[00:06:01] WetPotatoBrain: And so, you know, it's not something that's practical to train on your own, uh, in order to, um, uh, set up your own, uh, system. Uh, I think they said that the, the cost that, that compute costs in order to train that over a billion images on this, uh, on this network was something over like $600,000, which actually is not much, uh, considering, uh, everything that's gone into it.

[00:06:24] WetPotatoBrain: But, um, there's a, there's a large amount of energy expenditure time and money that goes into training that databases. It used to be on the order of hundred million. Maybe now they're over a billion. And so, no, it's not Google search. Uh, there's there's databases that have these. Okay. And then 

[00:06:45] Klutch: you, you mentioned this is just one subset of AI.

[00:06:50] Klutch: Uh, can you explain that a little further and also talk about, uh, the difference between AI and generative art? A little, I know, I know right now you're some of your work is kind of blending the two and that's pretty innovative. It, it appears. So can you explain those further, please? 

[00:07:07] WetPotatoBrain: Okay. So when people hear the term generative art, I think, I think we gotta take a step back with that too.

[00:07:14] WetPotatoBrain: And I think that that's a very, very general term and, and that should be used as an umbrella and the way that I see it, and maybe it's not how other people see it. But when, when you use the word generative art, it means that you put something into an equation in a computer and it gives you something back.

[00:07:32] WetPotatoBrain: And so stuff that I see that's generated by Dolly, I think that's, that's generative. It comes from nothing. It comes out of a computer. It comes from an algorithm. Um, stuff that you see on art blocks. When you look at a ringer that came from an algorithm, if it ends, it came from an algorithm. So that's generative too.

[00:07:52] WetPotatoBrain: I think it popularized on, uh, social media and stuff like that. People equi, generative art with art and, um, other types of, um, uh, algorithm based art. But I think it's a, I think it's a bigger term than that. I think it has to do with anything where you can put something into a formula or a network. Uh that's that's already predetermined and there's some element of randomness and then you get some art out of it.

[00:08:18] WetPotatoBrain: And so that's where I see AI art fitting into generative, or I think it's part, I think it's part of generative art. I think that the stuff that you see on art blocks and, and other, uh, platforms, that's generative art too. And, um, I think it's, you have to understand there's a difference between the two, but they fall under maybe the same category.

[00:08:39] WetPotatoBrain: Maybe other people don't agree though. 

[00:08:41] Klutch: Thank you very much for all the background. Um, does everybody feel like we have a good background ready to go? Hex lawyer Kel. 

[00:08:48] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, I mean, I, I agree, um, with doc's, um, description and, and, you know, I, when I think of generative art, I do think of a more, um, narrow subset, specifically things like art blocks.

[00:09:07] Ex-Lawyer: Um, and so if we're going to use, I, I think we have to be very specific in what we're talking about when we talk about AI art, when we're talking about generative art in this, um, discussion, because, uh, I see them, even though they're based on similar technology, I see them as two very different things.

[00:09:27] Klutch: Yeah, me too. I think most people view generative as your typical, a blocks thing. And, uh, in their head, most people are viewing Dolly too and mid journey and things like that as AI art. And maybe we are just the uneducated masses, but I think that's kinda what's happening anyway. 

[00:09:46] WetPotatoBrain: I think that's an okay way to think about it too.

[00:09:48] WetPotatoBrain: But I think just the, kind of the definition of what does it mean to be generative, meaning create something from a computer program? I think just kind of like the overall classification, like if you were looking like a pH tree or something like that, I feel like everything's kind of generative that comes out of computer, but maybe, uh, from a conversational or practical standpoint, it's probably easier to talk about things in terms of like a versus generative slash art blocks.

[00:10:16] WetPotatoBrain: So I, I think it's probably like easier to talk about things that way just cause that's how it's been set up. Cool. 

[00:10:22] Klutch: All right. So let's get into the debate then the debate is, is AI art, real art? And I know a lot of people think this is some people think. This is a dumb question. And of course it is. And some people think the opposite, right?

[00:10:40] Klutch: Like somebody's just doing a Google search. Right. And, and then, you know, if you do a hundred of 'em, maybe you get a good one and that's what you show off, but there's no real, you know, advanced skill, something that took years to master, cuz we all know how to make Google searches. So I would like to get into the debate now.

[00:11:02] Klutch: And um, I'd like to ask you, ask you all, who do you feel is more the artist in this situation with Dolly too, for example, uh, the person feeding the system with words, the person who programmed the system or the person who took pictures that make up the reference set. How, how would you weigh each of those contributors into the outcome of a piece of work?

[00:11:25] Ex-Lawyer: No one wants to answer. Um, 

[00:11:27] WetPotatoBrain: okay. That's that's a, that's a 

[00:11:30] Ex-Lawyer: really hard question. I, I think that. And I'm, I'm just kind of talking off the top of my head here. So you've given me three choices, the person who types, the person who, um, took the pictures that it's trained on, that the AI engine is trained on.

[00:11:48] Ex-Lawyer: And, um, the AI slash programmers. Well at the outset, I kind of want to dispose of the people who took the pictures that it's trained on as doc just said, um, Dolly is trained on a billion plus images. So if you take that, then that means that any one of those images makes up a very, very, very minuscule piece of the completed output from the AI.

[00:12:19] Ex-Lawyer: Um, and so if we can dispose of them, then, then we're down to two we're down to the person who types and the AI slash programmers. I think it's, I think it's a collaboration. Um, if you. Claire silver. For example, if you take her, she describes herself as a collaborative AI artist. Um, I, I believe that the outputs that you get from AI are things that a person would not create themselves likely and things that a, at least today AI would not create by itself.

[00:12:58] Ex-Lawyer: So if I had to assign a score to those, I mean, it's very, very difficult to do. Um, you 

[00:13:05] Ex-Lawyer: know, 

[00:13:05] Ex-Lawyer: the, I, I just retweeted if you're, if you're here, um, a 

[00:13:12] Ex-Lawyer: thread that I did of 

[00:13:13] Ex-Lawyer: AI outputs, um, that I did to try and basically create, uh, Dolly versions of portraits of, uh, people that are, um, in the space. And some of those were one or two prompts and I got 'em.

[00:13:32] Ex-Lawyer: Um, but most of those were 20 or 30 prompts. And so the, there is skill in the person that, um, enters the prompt in deciding that, yes, this is what I'm going for. This is good. This represents what I have in my mind. Um, but I think it's, it's almost impossible for, to assign a numerical value or percentage between the two.

[00:14:05] Klutch: This is where I would back a little bit because I'm eCommerce guy. So I'm very much in the search engine optimization, uh, and have been for, you know, a decade plus now. So I've probably done more Google searches than 99.9, 9% of the world. Like. Just a fact. Uh, luckily now we have tools that allow you to just run your rankings based on keywords and, and everything.

[00:14:32] Klutch: So you don't have to do that anymore, but back in the day you did, you had to do just a billion different searches. So say you sold TVs online. Uh, if you were, if you were trying to see what your rankings were, you would type in whatever ed TVs, Samsung TVs, you just had to type in all the keywords separately.

[00:14:53] Klutch: And over time you just, you learned or, and you would go into Google analytics and you would check out where your traffic is from coming from, which, uh, keywords. Um, so to me you say you tried it 30 times, right? I'm gonna, I wanna push back there because you're just, is it skill or is it just trial and error until you get to it and is trial and error skill?

[00:15:20] Ex-Lawyer: So. All right. Keep in mind that I write a lot. Right. Um, I think that there is a skill in describing what you want. Um, if you were to look at the prompts that I used to the images in that thread, those prompts are very, very specific. They describe a style, they describe, um, exactly what the person is wearing, um, in some cases and how they're posed and that sort of thing.

[00:15:50] Ex-Lawyer: And so when I'm changing the prompt to do those, I might only be changing one word or I might be changing. Um, the order of words. Um, I think that when you're, at least when you're doing the type of AI art, where you are, it is text image that there is some skill, certainly debatable about how much, but some skill in understanding.

[00:16:19] Ex-Lawyer: How the computer, how the AI is going to parse your prompts. Um, and you know, I, and I say that it's still because as I have used things like Dolly more, I have been better at getting what I want and what I see in my head out earlier in the process, it has taken me fewer prompts to get what I want. Um, so I think that there is some skill there.

[00:16:51] Ex-Lawyer: Can I, in 

[00:16:52] WetPotatoBrain: real quick, yeah, go ahead. I found this thing probably I like eight months ago, it was a Twitter bot. And what they did was they, they used a disco diffusion notebook. I think it was like the 4.0 version, which is freely accessible. Anybody can use it doesn't to get it and running runs through like a web browser.

[00:17:15] WetPotatoBrain: And it took, uh, Swifts and into disco diffusion. And then it published a picture like every hour, like, uh, what it created out of those lyrics. And like, there was no curation, it was a bot. So everything that went in, you got to see on the, you got to see on the Twitter feed for, for this account. And they all went pretty good.

[00:17:41] WetPotatoBrain: like, they were all pretty impressive. And, you know, disco has like a very, uh, unique kind of aesthetic. It's different from like, uh, some of the other text to image stuff, but, you know, just using a disco notebook and automated taking Taylor swift lyrics and putting it into it. Uh, some of the stuff that came out, you couldn't tell, I couldn't tell, like if somebody, you know, curated that after a thousand prompts or what, but you can go back in time, it was a Twitter and you can just kinda see, you know, what it created.

[00:18:11] WetPotatoBrain: Pretty cool. 

[00:18:13] Klutch: Yeah. So that, that's interesting, right? Because now you're talking, like, did the person who put in the words, are they really valuable to the equation? Right? Uh, the, the prompt engineer has a lot of, that's a new term that's coming up or they like to say they curated the words. Right. But if you could just grab a group of text out of Taylor Swiss lyrics and it looks good and that's a good piece of art.

[00:18:38] Klutch: Well, let's, I mean, isn't that interesting? 

[00:18:40] WetPotatoBrain: Well, let's Taylor swift, Taylor swift, an artist 

[00:18:43] Ex-Lawyer: so true 

[00:18:46] WetPotatoBrain: with 

[00:18:47] Ex-Lawyer: AI today. Um, with something like Dolly, you can enter a lot of things and get cool looking outputs, but. Do those outputs carry the intent and the message that, um, an artist wants. So, you know, if you were to just throw random words into Dolly, you would not get the outputs that, 

[00:19:13] WetPotatoBrain: uh, that are in the thread that I, I retweeted, 

[00:19:17] Ex-Lawyer: um, um, those outputs, I set out with a goal to create images that looked like, um, the PFPs or that represented the person that I was trying to do.

[00:19:30] Ex-Lawyer: So I think that, you know, um, yeah, you can, you can put random words into a, an AI and get cool looking outputs, but you know, are cool looking outputs enough to be really considered quote unquote art. I mean, this whole topic is AI art. Art, uh, it, it, it's, it's very much dependent on your definition of what is art.

[00:19:57] Ex-Lawyer: Okay. 

[00:19:57] Klutch: Well, what is art then? Would you consider something? Well, all right. Let's, let's talk about this. I know this is something we've talked about briefly ex lawyer, raw prompts versus mixed media usage. Would you consider a piece that was a raw prompt, a less skillful piece of AI art than somebody who used it as a mixed media piece?

[00:20:27] Ex-Lawyer: I think man, you're, you're got a lot of people listening and you're, you're sticking it to me here. Um, 

[00:20:34] Klutch: I told you I'm coming for blood, man. 

[00:20:37] Ex-Lawyer: You are you're remind me never to say yes to you again. so I think that there, I I've already stated, I think that there is skill in designing a prompt. Um, when you take the very, very, very, what I consider to be the very, very, very best AI works.

[00:20:55] Ex-Lawyer: Um, they are often not raw prompts. Um, so I did a little, little curating last night. Uh, if you're in here, check out my list, there is a list in, uh, that I created last night and it is called, um, AI artist. Uh, and everybody knows that I do disclosures, et cetera. So there are 10 artists in there. Um, I own works from some of them and some of them I do not own, um, in that list are people like, um, what, what's her name?

[00:21:35] Ex-Lawyer: Um, Maine, uh, Maine keynote art, and I own one of her, one of ones, and I own a couple of her pieces on tezo. Um, Her work is often, um, multiple passes of AI. So it's multiple prompts, outputted, uh, or outputs. And then she uses, uh, Photoshop and other, uh, tools to kind of collage them together. And they are cohesive pieces that are generally free from AI artifacts.

[00:22:10] Ex-Lawyer: So those that piece, a piece that she creates, I think are, um, they take more than just prompt skill. Certainly, uh, those, those pieces take, uh, skills with Photoshop and all sorts of other, um, all sorts of other tools. Yeah. I, 

[00:22:34] Klutch: sorry, go ahead. 

[00:22:36] WetPotatoBrain: When, when I hear you describe how she kind of puts it together. It makes me think that like, she's the one that actually synthesizes the image that you see that the painting is synthesized by her.

[00:22:49] WetPotatoBrain: She uses parts and she puts it together and she does it very thoughtfully. And that's the synthesis of the image. Yeah, I agree. Uh, so to, to, uh, before you 

[00:23:03] got 

[00:23:03] Ex-Lawyer: on clutch, I, I told everybody that we have a little group chat and that, uh, that group chat is not a blood bath. Um, and yesterday in the group chat, I, I said, you know, I'll tell you where I think it's gonna end up.

[00:23:14] Ex-Lawyer: I think it's gonna end up 

[00:23:16] WetPotatoBrain: with AI as a 

[00:23:17] Ex-Lawyer: tool. Um, just like any other tool, Photoshop, et cetera. And, um, you use it as necessary and that is what she, and many, many other people do. Um, there's another artist that I included in that list. Uh, and her name is. Marie ink park and I own one of her pieces. Um, it's an addition on E and I messaged her yesterday to ask her, to ask her, how did you do this?

[00:23:46] Ex-Lawyer: Um, so what she does is she actually uses ink paintings, um, and creates a physical piece and then scans that piece and then uses AI to create the face that is, that appears in the image and then uses Photoshop to get rid of the AI, the AI artifact thing. Um, and so, you know, can a raw prompt be art? I think so.

[00:24:18] Ex-Lawyer: Yes, but I think that probably the highest use of AI is as a tool in conjunction with other tools. 

[00:24:31] Klutch: Yeah, that makes sense to me. I mean, you look at, uh, Claire's work for example, and she many times just basically gives you the, the recipe of how she created it. Right? Like she says, I created this part and pro's painter, and then I went into this and then I was trying to find something that matched this style and then I blended together.

[00:24:48] Klutch: And that makes sense, but where, where I have a hard time with it as a collector is there's times where I've thought, well, this piece looks cool. And then I code a doc and I'm like, doc, what, what do you think of this? And, and doc, you've told me before, like, I think this is just a straight, raw prompt.

[00:25:08] Klutch: That's, you know, I can give you this exact thing and we could probably make something like this and 10 seconds. Right. So that happens too. And not every artist is being forthcoming with how they're exactly creating their AI art. So that creates a problem for collectors on how to value it. I feel like, um, What do you guys think of that?

[00:25:30] Klutch: Do you think there's a, an issue there with being honest about your creation process and should we, should we have different values based on different techniques? 

[00:25:41] WetPotatoBrain: I think that there's, I'm a, a splitter, so there's people that describe nothing about how they get to their work in art. And then there's people that go into extreme detail.

[00:25:51] WetPotatoBrain: There's very few people that are kinda like in the middle somewhere. I, I feel like, uh, people are one of the two and, uh, I think, uh, you spend enough time looking at the pictures and the paintings and, and getting familiar with the, what the technology. I think most people can educate themselves relatively quickly.

[00:26:11] WetPotatoBrain: I think there's a learning curve, but I don't think it's something that, uh, an average collector wouldn't be able to, uh, understand in a very short period of 

[00:26:21] Ex-Lawyer: time. Yeah, I, I agree with that. I mean, I, I'm obviously on the side of disclose everything that anyone might ever wanna know. So, you know, if I were actually to min some AI work that I created, um, I would tell people, this is just an AI output.

[00:26:43] Ex-Lawyer: Um, this was the raw output, or I would tell people this is, you know, a collage of multiple outputs that I did through Photoshop or whatever I did. Um, I don't think that there's, you know, a downside. I mean, maybe there is maybe, maybe some people will value it as less. Um, but from an honesty perspective, I don't see a downside in, in telling people what you did.

[00:27:08] Ex-Lawyer: Um, and that's why on the thread that is now pinned. I left the Dolly kind of stamp in the bottom right corner. Um, I don't want people to think that I, uh, you know, did something other than create a prompt that output to those. Okay. I got a take go for, it 

[00:27:34] WetPotatoBrain: mentioned disclosures and kind of disclosing things, making sure, you know, people understand what's going on to the full extent that, that you can, should people that kinda make and promote, should they disclose if they're investors in these companies that are, you know, set up to make big bucks off of sales of these tokens to, uh, to use the web prompts, you know, is this something that should be disclosed or is that something that, you know, people should feel free to invest on their own and not have to say anything about, uh, As they go along.

[00:28:15] WetPotatoBrain: What, what do you guys think about that? Ooh, 

[00:28:18] Klutch: that's a good one. You know, I feel like you should disclose because you know, you're, it's kind of like, Hmm. It's kinda like insider trading. a little bit, you know, I don't know. It's kinda like you're trying to influence the masses to that. This is a great tool, but if you don't tell 'em that you're gonna make money off of all them, that seems kind of disingenuous.

[00:28:46] Klutch: I don't 

[00:28:47] WetPotatoBrain: know. It's a little in it's a little insider. yeah. A little bit, right? 

[00:28:51] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. Does that happen? 

[00:28:53] WetPotatoBrain: I think it happens. Hmm. I, I probably get like every, uh, every two weeks I get, uh, you know, some sort of message about being an early investor in one of the name brand companies that you're all familiar with or one of the up and coming ones that you're not yet familiar with.

[00:29:11] Ex-Lawyer: And, 

[00:29:11] Klutch: and then what are they asking you? Are they asking you to go in and well, 

[00:29:15] WetPotatoBrain: yeah, they want money and sometimes, uh, you get early access to software. Uh, you know, I make art, I make art with AI. So I'm obviously interested in the latest and the greatest, but you know, nothing has appealed to me so far in terms of that type of proposition.

[00:29:32] WetPotatoBrain: Yeah. 

[00:29:32] Klutch: That's really tough though, because it's like, of course, if you're in that industry and making it, of course you wanna go get people who are gonna help you promote it. Right. So it's not too terrible, but there's, I feel like they should be forthcoming a little bit. Like, like, for example, if you're gonna start a, an e-commerce site, you you'd be much better off coming to me cause I'll provide value than coming to, um, me, whoever else that you know, works in a warehouse or something.

[00:30:01] Klutch: Right. I 

[00:30:02] WetPotatoBrain: can't can't even get the headset to work. I don't know. I'm not sure anymore. 

[00:30:06] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think that, um, if you are. An investor in something, and you are saying, Hey, look at this cool output that I used from, you know, X, Y, Z AI. Uh, and you do that, you know, that you should say, by the way, I'm an investor in this.

[00:30:26] Ex-Lawyer: If you just post an image and you don't say I used X, Y, Z AI to do this, and it's just, you know, you just posted the image. I don't feel like you'd necessarily, by the way, not legal advice, definitely hire your own counsel if you're doing this. But, um, , I, I, you know, I feel like if you're just posting an image, you're like, Hey, this is cool, but you're not saying I used X to do it.

[00:30:46] Ex-Lawyer: That that's less of a problem than if you, you know, say the name of the company that you invested in, uh, when you, when you posted. But, I mean, I, I tend to, I mean, my view on disclosure is I'm gonna disclosure everything cause I'm never, ever gonna have anybody ever question my ethics or who I am. Yeah. I 

[00:31:07] NorCal: agree.

[00:31:08] NorCal: I think disclosure's a huge, huge part of it. I mean, especially like web three is all about decentralization, open source. Um, I think it should definitely be part of all, a 

[00:31:20] Ex-Lawyer: lot of 

[00:31:21] WetPotatoBrain: this because, because we're saying that the art's cool and that, that, that the outputs, I don't like to use the term output, but the, the art that's generated from this, these softwares are, are cool and people get this, uh, you know, sense of empowerment because they can use it themselves at their computer.

[00:31:39] WetPotatoBrain: But the truth is it's, it's a big business and it's commercialized and it's a, it's a, it's a, uh, they're selling it to the masses. And, uh, if people don't realize that if they think that they're just getting some fun, cool outputs from some words, And they're kind of missing the point because the, the point I don't think is really to kind of spread love and art as much as you think.

[00:32:02] WetPotatoBrain: I think that there's also an element of business and, uh, selling credits, uh, on these websites that, um, you know, oh yeah. Per Perme permeates everything that I see. Definitely. 

[00:32:14] Ex-Lawyer: I mean, so I have, uh, I have access to Dolly, um, and they're very, they're very smart about the way that they, uh, they give you access.

[00:32:23] Ex-Lawyer: So I, I can't remember how many credits they give you. They give you your first week. It's like 15 credits and a credit is you enter a prompt and hit enter that uses one credit. Um, you're gonna burn through 15 credits in like 20 minutes, and then you're gonna have to buy more and to be fair, they're, they're very reasonably priced.

[00:32:43] Ex-Lawyer: Uh, I burned through my first credits in 20 minutes and then bought like 800 more credits. Um, because it's, you know, it's, it's something fun to play with. And I'm not an investor in Dolly. I just enjoy using it. 

[00:32:58] Klutch: I wish I was. So come call me Dolly and I'll make money off all these, uh, AI 

[00:33:03] WetPotatoBrain: people. , that's not, you want the, you want the next thing that, that people haven't heard about once you see it on, once you see it on social media and influencers showing their that they made with something and name brand software, it's already too late.

[00:33:15] WetPotatoBrain: You need to, you need to get in before, before the influencers start selling either art. 

[00:33:20] Klutch: What's what's the next thing, doc? 

[00:33:22] Ex-Lawyer: I, I actually lookout

[00:33:30] Klutch: fun topic. All right. I got one more, uh, question maybe a couple more, but next one is, uh, when people bring up a lot is saying AI is equivalent to photography. When cameras first came out of fair and accurate comparison. So everybody likes to say AI is just a tool, right? Just like the camera is a tool. You think that's a fair comparison because to me, I think it's not completely fair because I can tell the difference between a really good photographer and what they're putting out.

[00:34:02] Klutch: And me taking a crappy picture on my, my phone camera. Like there is a clear division or separation in the quality of the work. Like it is so obvious. You can look at half these people in our chat right now, Omar, Brendan ALA, like what they do, you can't man. The average person off the street is not gonna go be able to repeat that without really spending time working on their craft.

[00:34:34] Klutch: But there are a lot of AI pieces out there that let's be honest. They were just somebody just trial and errored a few and threw 'em up there. And, and granted though the, they tend to not the bad ones. Don't tend to go for a lot of money for sure. But. They're still out 

[00:34:50] Ex-Lawyer: there. So I wrote a thread on this , um, and which I will retweet in just a second.

[00:34:57] Ex-Lawyer: Um, I, I wrote a thread comparing AI to a camera in that I see them both as tools. Um, and in that thread, basically what I say is, um, it takes all right. So everybody that you mentioned that is a photographer. Yes, they're excellent at framing and understanding how the camera works and setting the pro proper aperture and, uh, shutter speed and, um, really getting good raw from the camera outputs, but very, very few, uh, pieces of fine art photography are actually raw from the camera.

[00:35:44] Ex-Lawyer: Um, the, the pieces that sell for tons and tons of money in general, tend to be, have some post and the level of post-processing varies, but they have some post processing, they have some color correction. Um, often they have, um, you know, some Photoshop in order to remove things that, you know, are kind of messing up the composition of the image remove.

[00:36:10] Ex-Lawyer: Um, I think Benza is a, a great example. Uh, he, he sometimes post his before and after edit shots and the afters are these crazy, surreal, insane, super uncomfortable looking shots that I absolutely love and befores are really, really cool raw from the, uh, raw from the camera shots. But they're, they've also got, you know, the stains on the street and that sort of thing.

[00:36:35] Ex-Lawyer: And so, you know, the camera is a tool that gets a, a great image, but that image is then. Adjusted to make it what the artist intended it to be. And, um, AI, as we discussed earlier, I think is just a tool that you'll get a raw output and then to make it truly awesome. You're probably doing something to it.

[00:37:03] Ex-Lawyer: Do you agree with that doc? 

[00:37:05] WetPotatoBrain: Mostly? Yeah. I, I think he's pretty spot on, uh, photography. I, I irate the synthesis of the image. The photograph that you see is, is they're, they're capturing something they're capturing light and the way that they do that, all the different ways that they frame things, uh, lighting, all the things that he, uh, he's went through.

[00:37:30] WetPotatoBrain: I'm not a photography expert whatsoever, but I understand some basics of it and that's all intention and it's very purposeful. And I think that, that the. Equivalent. If you were to say I'm a text to image, AI artist would be let's, let's see what your prompt is, what, what let's publish your prompt with, you know, what, what words did you use to come up with this?

[00:37:56] WetPotatoBrain: How can you describe how you came to your, uh, to your image? And, you know, a, a photographer can tell you that I can, I can look at, you know, Guido went through his series and he was showing me like these behind the scenes things, how he set the scenes up and how it was crazy. And there was no light. And I thought it was awesome, but I got to understand more about the photo and, and the image synthesis, the process of synthesizing that image of capturing that image.

[00:38:21] WetPotatoBrain: Uh, I don't know, maybe text to image AI if they, if they were to go through that. And then if there was post processing involved to kind of go through those steps too, but walking through some stuff behind the scenes or understanding how it's created, I think, uh, helps people understand art a little bit better.

[00:38:41] WetPotatoBrain: Absolutely. So I, I 

[00:38:43] Ex-Lawyer: just retweeted, um, the thread that I wrote. And if you look at that thread, 

[00:38:47] WetPotatoBrain: tweet 15 has a quote 

[00:38:50] Ex-Lawyer: tweet, um, of a photographer and it it's a really cool, um, kind of video of the raw output from the camera. And then the post processing that he did to get the final image that eventually was sold.

[00:39:07] Ex-Lawyer: Um, there's, you know, there's a lot of work to make really great art. And I also quote, tweeted, um, a thread from bat soup young, and he has in that thread, uh, some examples of some of the post processing that photographers do. I would love, love to see someone that is, um, works with AI show a raw output, and then show.

[00:39:36] Ex-Lawyer: Uh, kind of a video of the work that they've done, um, in order to make the final product. I, I know that there are a couple of AI artists that I see, uh, down in the audience. And so just putting the bug in your ear, that would be really, really 

[00:39:51] WetPotatoBrain: cool 

[00:39:53] Ex-Lawyer: to see, to kind of show that the best work is not just a raw prompt.

[00:39:59] Klutch: Yeah. I would love to see that too. That is, uh, I've, I've, I've read that thread of yours a couple times actually ex lawyer, and it's really good. And I have seen a lot of photographers do that, right. Where they show edits being made and it's, it's mind blowing how they adjust the lighting to make it look like that versus the, the raw picture at times, uh, from guys like mine's eye and whoever else.

[00:40:24] Klutch: But yeah, you don't, I haven't seen that from an AI artist at this point, and that's kind of one of the hurdles in my head, right? Like how, how am I gonna value this? It's not like, uh, It's not like looking at a sea light procreate versus my own procreate. Right? Like you could clearly just tell mine sucks and his is awesome, right?

[00:40:44] Klutch: Like that's, that's very easy to see. You can see quality differences, but in AI it's harder. It feels harder to see that difference 

[00:40:53] Ex-Lawyer: to me. I, you know, doc earlier said something along the lines of, if you look in enough AI art, you can kind of tell if something is a raw output. And I agree with that. I, I think if you spend enough time looking at AI, you can't always tell.

[00:41:10] Ex-Lawyer: I mean, sometimes you just get really, really solid outputs. 

[00:41:13] WetPotatoBrain: Um, but 

[00:41:15] Ex-Lawyer: if you look at enough of it, you'll, you'll notice the aberrations in the image and you'll, you'll notice the artifacting and that's kind of a. Just a, a hint that maybe this is a raw output, because if somebody was, you know, doing some, some post work, um, they would correct that.

[00:41:35] Ex-Lawyer: A perfect example of that is within the thread that is now, um, pinned at the top. Uh, the one that I did of, uh, of portraits, there's one that I did of, uh, Vincent van do. Um, and it's a moon bird standing on a tongues and cube and that's a raw output and it's like, I think it's a pretty solid, raw output, but.

[00:42:00] Ex-Lawyer: If you look at the bird's foot, you can see some, some issues with the way that it shaped. And if you look at, uh, the cube, there are a couple of places where the Cube's not just perfect. And if I like, like, if I was that sell it, um, I would, I would open that in Photoshop. And those 

[00:42:19] WetPotatoBrain: things'll give, we'll give you a pass on the moon bird's feet because real moon birds don't have feet.

[00:42:24] WetPotatoBrain: So we'll probably confused by that. Fair enough. 

[00:42:28] Ex-Lawyer: Fair enough. I appreciate. 

[00:42:30] Klutch: Well, before we, uh, get to our, I got one, I I'll throw this one to Kel. This is my, uh, my final Kel. When you're looking at a piece of art, what do you, Val, do you intuitively tend to value art more that you feel has a higher barrier to entry, whether that be, it takes years worth of honing your craft and your skill, whether it takes traveling to the other side of the planet and.

[00:43:00] Klutch: Sitting in a tent for weeks with in shitty weather to get the, the perfect. Versus somebody who just sits at their computer and types in prompts 20 times in a row. I mean, you, you guys like how I framed that one, by the way, 

[00:43:17] Ex-Lawyer: getting 

[00:43:18] WetPotatoBrain: pretty aggressive here. I mean, 

[00:43:20] Klutch: I have to bring it, man. This is my job. 

[00:43:23] NorCal: I definitely feel like the process is definitely part of the value.

[00:43:27] NorCal: Um, and that's, I guess like you guys were talking about just a few minutes ago, um, I I'd wanna see the process if I like, especially with AI, if you feel like, oh, well, if I just practice a few, you know, like 20 minutes a day, I'm gonna be just as good as this person say. Um, versus say some other art. I feel like they are doing a lot more work for it.

[00:43:55] NorCal: So I think the process is huge for valuation, cuz it's hard to know how to value some of this art. It's 

[00:44:01] Klutch: hard. Yeah. I feel like I end up valuing it more on how the artist markets themself and you're doing that anyway, right? Like a little bit like certain photographer, you know, everybody's work is valued a little bit on how good you are at marketing yourself for sure.

[00:44:16] Klutch: But I just have a very hard time understanding how to value AI art and. And maybe it's maybe it's because I haven't seen those videos, like you've talked about ex lawyer that show the process, right? Like it feels. To me very much. Like somebody just sat there and Google searched something until they got an output they liked.

[00:44:39] Klutch: And then they're like mint. And 

[00:44:41] NorCal: I think part of it is, you know, it's this fresh brand new tool and you see a lot more of it. And then you're like, is it really worth that much? Or are these people because everyone's playing with them right now. So 

[00:44:54] WetPotatoBrain: you're just wondering, like that's part of the design that's part of the design.

[00:44:59] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. So go, sorry. 

[00:45:03] NorCal: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's part of the design, but you're just like, everyone's playing with it. Are people just like, I guess, cause like when, uh, in like early 20, 21 and you just had people like jumping on NFTs to like try and just make money as quick as they could and then they'd bounced.

[00:45:19] NorCal: Um, and I guess you could kind of say like how many are doing that with AI art versus not, I guess it's part of it is like the process figuring out what is good. What's not good. And I guess many people don't know that difference. It's I guess it's just gonna be a learning curve for everyone. 

[00:45:39] Ex-Lawyer: When I think about art value, I think about it in two different aspects.

[00:45:45] Ex-Lawyer: Um, you think about economic value and the truth to economic value is that a lot of economic value is driven by, um, popularity. Um, not to say that that very popular artists do not deserve their value, but they are getting a lot of benefit from how big their audience is. Um, there are photographers that have, you know, four, 500 followers as opposed to, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands that create from an artistic, at least in my opinion, from an artistic perspective.

[00:46:32] Ex-Lawyer: Equally equally Meritus work as larger follower artists, but that do not reap the same economic benefits. Um, so you know, that's one piece and I think, I think just a lot of that is driven by, um, you know, who you are and how many, how many followers you have and stuff. The other way that I look at art and that I look at its value is, um, it's value to me.

[00:47:03] Ex-Lawyer: And it's value to me is based on, does this piece make me think or feel, um, does this piece speak to me? So, you know, I, I look at a piece and there, there are some people that I've, I've included in that, um, list that one of them does AI art of. Aging people. Um, and they look like paintings and it's, I think it's, uh, some of them might actually be raw outposts, but I think they've been edited a little bit.

[00:47:38] Ex-Lawyer: And when I look at those pieces, I, it just makes me step back and think about the interaction of people and you know, how our lives are short and how computers can make us, you know, can give us, uh, eternal life in some respects. And, you know, other times I'll look at a piece and I'll go, man, that, that piece really just, it speaks to my soul.

[00:48:03] Ex-Lawyer: So I think that when you talk about value, you have to think about both. Um, if I'm assigning, um, emotional value, then emotional and, and intellectual value, then to me, the process to create it is irrelevant. It is the raw. Emotion that it stirs in me that is relevant and that just doesn't care about process.

[00:48:32] Ex-Lawyer: Is 

[00:48:32] Klutch: there some very, very interesting thoughts and I, I do agree with a lot of 'em actually. I mean, it's, you know, it's like anything does how you get to the final piece really matter if you love it, for example, and you think it's, you know, beautiful and brilliant. I, I can, I could definitely understand that argument more than most, but I'm just very skeptical because I, I always like to tie art value still to the barrier to entry.

[00:49:03] Klutch: Like it's just in my own intuition that I feel like that's an important thing, because it's like, if anybody can create it, if like the whole world can become AI artists tomorrow, how do you value AI art versus it is very like very few people are ever gonna become travel photographers who are just brilliant at their craft or.

[00:49:25] Klutch: Or, or amazing people at procreate or painting or whatever they do. So the, the barrier to entry there feels so much higher to me that I just intuitively want to value it more, but that's me do any other guys have any final closing thoughts before we get to hot takes? 

[00:49:46] WetPotatoBrain: Uh, just one thing real quick. I, I just wanted to my interpretation of what you just said, this barrier to entry idea kind of also relates to scarcity too, because yes, there's only so many people that are gonna track out to Patagonia and sit there in the freezing cold and you know, these types of experiences in order to capture that one shot that that relates to scarcity too.

[00:50:08] WetPotatoBrain: If we know if we, if we know what cert would. Text to image AI engine that someone uses and we know what their prompt is. Anybody can create a similar figure, uh, just based on that. And for all we know, and I'm not saying this because I'm suspicious, but for all, we know that these companies are just collecting the data that we put into them in order to figure out what we like 

[00:50:31] Ex-Lawyer: and what makes the best images and how they can sell more 

[00:50:33] WetPotatoBrain: product too.

[00:50:34] WetPotatoBrain: But I'm just gonna leave that probably for another episode. 

[00:50:37] Klutch: Ooh, that's spicy. Holy cow. That just blew my mind a little bit. That's kid. That's right. They're farming us. They're farming us. Well, 

[00:50:45] WetPotatoBrain: you guys don't learn your lessons from web two and now we're in web three and you guys are still setting your credit money in and playing these games through, you know, through 

[00:50:53] Ex-Lawyer: websites, like, come on.

[00:50:56] Klutch: Oh my God. We are the product. 

[00:50:59] WetPotatoBrain: Yeah. If you don't pay for it, then you are the product right. There 

[00:51:02] Klutch: you go. But you're also paying for it in this case too. getting you from both 

[00:51:07] Ex-Lawyer: sides. Oh, we said was a good deal. Remember? 

[00:51:11] Klutch: Yeah. That's true. All right. Should we go to hot, hot, 

[00:51:16] Ex-Lawyer: hot

[00:51:19] Ex-Lawyer: it's.

HOT TAKES JINGLE

[00:51:26] Klutch: This is funny. Cause I feel like we've been spitting them the whole show today. So Norco. I know you got one. You wanna go first? Well 

[00:51:33] NorCal: well, I feel it was kind of answered in the beginning, like two and one, like, but my, my original hot take before we started this episode was gonna be generative. Art is more AI than AI 

[00:51:44] Klutch: art.

[00:51:46] Klutch: And why do you think that? 

[00:51:47] Ex-Lawyer: Oh, 

[00:51:47] NorCal: because I, I feel it's all code well, it's code based and you know, there's, I feel like there's a lot more thought put into it. People really work on 

[00:51:56] Ex-Lawyer: their 

[00:51:58] NorCal: craft to get those outputs that they want for the generat of art. Whereas this what we are calling AI art, the Dolly. Um, currently it seems like just a toy in a way for many that are experimenting with 

[00:52:14] Klutch: it.

[00:52:15] Klutch: Hmm. Doc, what do you think about that? Take, 

[00:52:19] WetPotatoBrain: uh, there's no AI involved with, uh, writing like a straight script. So if you talk to Tyler Hobbs or. Any other generative artists, I'm just throwing out name. That first came to mind. They'll, they'll give you the, they'll give you the, uh, the algorithm that they used to produce.

[00:52:33] WetPotatoBrain: The thing, the randomness, the reason that you see variation in the out outcomes or paintings is based on your Ethereum hash. So, uh, the randomness comes from the blockchain itself. But the algorithm is immutable. It's a, it's a, it's a single algorithm. It doesn't change. So there's no like learning, there's no adaption.

[00:52:53] WetPotatoBrain: There's no, there's no synthesis. Uh, from the, from the equation itself it's made, it's literally made like, uh, like, uh, I think Dimitri says hand coded they're hand coded goods. He does it himself. So there's no real like AI or neural network or anything like that. Um, in terms of making the stuff that you see, what you refer to with generative art.

[00:53:15] WetPotatoBrain: But, um, I agree. It's, there's, there's a lot, a lot of intention with that type of stuff when you make the, uh, when you make, uh, equations and that create art and, you know, it's different from AI stuff. That's for sure. 

[00:53:29] Klutch: Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for that answer. XLO or doc, either you have any hot takes, 

[00:53:34] WetPotatoBrain: you wanna.

[00:53:35] Ex-Lawyer: I've got a hot take, but it is completely unrelated to web three and I'll probably get some people that unfollow me for this hot take . And my disclosure, I do not invest in either one of these companies, but everybody loves Chipotle. 

[00:53:50] WetPotatoBrain: Right? There's a, uh, 

[00:53:53] Ex-Lawyer: there's a, a version that does bowls except their Mediterranean bowls.

[00:53:57] Ex-Lawyer: And it's called kava C a V a it's better than Chipotle. I'm sorry. It's true. 

[00:54:03] Klutch: I like that one. I gotta find one of these. Are they? Where are you? You're in Texas, right? 

[00:54:09] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah, I'm in DFW, Texas. Um, but I, I think that they're, I know that they're outside of Texas as well. I think it's actually a franchise, uh, system it's it's really, really good.

[00:54:18] Ex-Lawyer: You should definitely try it. I had it last night. 

[00:54:22] Klutch: All right. Well, all you Chipotle fans out there going on follow ex lawyer and, uh, no, I'm just kidding. Uh, doc, you 

[00:54:29] WetPotatoBrain: got any, all right. Uh, no one told me to get a high take together, but, uh, just thinking about some things that we were talking about over the past hour, we should all be thinking about who's benefiting from this stuff.

[00:54:42] WetPotatoBrain: And it's not just artists, uh, in terms of this, uh, text to image stuff. Uh, we gotta think about the companies that are behind it, what their motivations are. Uh, we gotta think about who's in charge of allowing different content to be generated with these engines. You know, censorships a real thing. There's certain terms that you can't put into these things because.

[00:55:03] WetPotatoBrain: The companies don't like it, and that that's very web two type stuff. It's not very decentralized. And so, um, I think that we need to make sure we don't, uh, repeat, uh, errors of the past and learn. We need to learn about, uh, things that have happened and how we got to where we are today, but we need to be careful about who's watching our data, uh, censoring us and who's benefiting economically and otherwise, uh, from, from this, uh, kinda new technology that's, uh, being mass introduced into the world.

[00:55:34] Klutch: What words are they censoring and why do you think they're doing so. 

[00:55:39] WetPotatoBrain: There's no graphic content allowed. There's no violent content 

[00:55:42] Ex-Lawyer: allowed. There's 

[00:55:44] WetPotatoBrain: no sexual content allowed. Uh, I heard a rumor that Pepe the frog, basically, you know, who I am is not allowed no way. Uh, yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's true. I mean, uh, there's a, there's a billion plus images and you can get images that are created with very, very specific details.

[00:56:04] WetPotatoBrain: But for some reason, if you enter that term, there's nothing that comes up like pep the frog as if you were to put it into like a Google image search or something. Very simple. And so it's, it's clearly censored. And so, um, you know, there's different things that are censored for different reasons, whether it's political or whether there's other motivations.

[00:56:22] WetPotatoBrain: Uh, but you know, you just gotta be gotta be aware of these things. 

[00:56:26] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. That's, that's a hundred percent true. Um, so quick little story, uh, I don't know, a month ago, three weeks ago or something people posted, um, one of his, every days and it was basically giant penguins, like eating people and he did a challenge that he wanted to see the best AI versions of that image.

[00:56:49] Ex-Lawyer: And if you were one of the best, he was gonna send you a assigned print. Um, so I, I tried to enter that contest, but in order to do that, well, you really had to include blood in the image. And I got several, uh, you're naughty, um, messages from Dolly because, uh, they do not want you using. Uh, violent content.

[00:57:15] Ex-Lawyer: Um, and, and honestly, I think that that is a, a, a problem with the, some of the texts to, um, image AI solutions, art confronts, difficult issues frequently. And when you, you know, these companies are for-profit companies, so I don't blame them for, you know, trying to do the best they can to make as much money as they can.

[00:57:41] Ex-Lawyer: But when you restrict certain types of words, uh, and you restrict certain types of images, then you limit the art that can be created by those programs. 

[00:57:54] Klutch: Yeah. That's interesting. You know, what's funny. I tried to do that same thing and I tried using Wombo dream and Dolly mini and I could not get anything close.

[00:58:01] Klutch: It was just all garbage outputs basically, but I guess right in, uh, Ginormous king Kong size penguin, eating humans. eating their heads off. They don't process that one. Well, yeah. So I 

[00:58:15] WetPotatoBrain: guess I'm an issue they could, they can control what they can control, what you make. Basically. They're, they're a gatekeeper.

[00:58:22] Klutch: Yeah. That's interesting. Cuz I'm wondering now what their long term plan is, right? Like obviously they want to make money off the, the prompts, but then what are they gonna do with it? Right. Like if they're just farming us to learn and ed keep educating the machine further and further, like what is it? Is it gonna become like, uh, an engine that can create scenes automatically in video games and make that whole process easier?

[00:58:49] Klutch: Or what, what is it gonna become? They already have 

[00:58:52] WetPotatoBrain: that. They do, huh? 

[00:58:55] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. 

[00:58:57] Klutch: Well little did I know? Uh, my take is gonna be. Is gonna be, I think, no matter what, we're gonna have a billion AI artists join the space, cuz it's just such a low barrier to entry. But I think very, very, very, very, very, very few are gonna ever be successful.

[00:59:16] Klutch: That's my hot take. Uh, the very few who will, will be excellent marketers. Um, but there'll be a, it's gonna be like, you know, tens, not hundreds that are gonna be successful long term, even though there's gonna be thousands of artists, because I just think there's a lot of collectors out there who have a similar opinion as me.

[00:59:42] Klutch: So I think the natural demand for that type of artwork is gonna be lower than, than other types of artwork. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my take 

[00:59:52] Ex-Lawyer: that's would you like one more hot take, pretty good taste there. Sure. Okay. So this is less of a hot take and more of a, uh, something to think about. Carl Lagerfeld said, 

[01:00:06] WetPotatoBrain: what I like about 

[01:00:06] Ex-Lawyer: photographs is they capture a moment.

[01:00:09] Ex-Lawyer: That's gone forever impossible to reproduce. I see texts to image AI, to be, um, a camera for emotions in the mind, uh, emotions and thoughts are fleeting. And when you use those, that's pretty it's.

[01:00:35] Klutch: Well, I think that's the show, unless you guys wanna add anything, if not, uh, I wanna say thank you to both of our guests, uh, at ex lawyer NFT and at we potato brain, uh, they are both excellent follows. So if you are listening, go follow them. Definit. Definitely amazing guys to follow in this space, actually.

[01:00:59] Klutch: Um, thanks, coach. Thank you. Uh, yeah. Thanks for, thanks for doing it. I hope I wasn't too rough. I hope we, but I did hope we like went after it hard, right? Like we didn't, I don't think we like, you know, tiptoed around it. I think we got after it. Pretty good. No, 

[01:01:16] WetPotatoBrain: we got, we got some stuff done. We got some more stuff to do, probably.

[01:01:18] WetPotatoBrain: So I think it's good. 

[01:01:20] Ex-Lawyer: Yeah. I'm never agreeing to do a show with you again, but it's been 

[01:01:23] fun. 

[01:01:24] Klutch: this was the most challenging one. I promise. Uh, most, most other ones are a little easier, but uh, thank you guys both again for doing it and for taking the grilling. Thank you, Kel for letting me ride on your coattails and do another podcast with you.

[01:01:41] Ex-Lawyer: no, thank 

[01:01:41] NorCal: you guys. It was awesome. And clutch it. Wouldn't be a show without you. 

[01:01:47] Klutch: Well, have a nice weekend, everyone. Talk to you all 

[01:01:49] WetPotatoBrain: later. Thanks. Bye.

OUTRO